discipline | Squirrelers

Hara Hachi Bu and Money: The 80% Solution

Financial Diet: Spending Until 80% Full

Fitness has been one of my goals for this year (as it probably is for many people, in a lot of years), but this time I’ve put forth more effort into it. Aside from the most important part – taking action – I’ve done a little more reading on ways to improve health.

Of course, as I say here periodically, health and money are interrelated. Improve one, and you can help the other. Now in this case, I thought I’d actually do something a bit different. Here, I thought of applying a health-related principle to money. That concept: Hara Hachi Bu.

From what I’ve learned, Hara Hachi Bu is an Okinawan approach to regulating eating. The idea is that one should eat until reaching the point of being 80% full. The result? People eat less, don’t gain unnecessary weight, and have better health. It’s been said that Okinawa has an exceptionally high percentage of centenarians compared to the rest of the world. Eating fewer calories, when paired with an active lifestyle, might really help longevity and the ability to live a healthy life to 100.

It got me thinking – why not apply the 80% concept to our spending?

If calorie restriction and eating until 80% full might play a role in longevity, maybe spending 80% of what we think we need can play a role in longevity of our savings as well. If we spend less, we can increase our income minus expense gap. This increased savings, with time, proper investing, and the power of compounding, can result in a substantially increased net worth and financial security. This extended life of our savings can help us live a higher quality of life for a longer period of time.

Now, I don’t think this is just a matter of taking a high level of spending and bringing it down by 20%. Rather, I’m talking about taking what would be a reasonable budget made by financially responsible people, and living on 80% of it.

This could entail spending (and living on) less as follows:

Housing – moving to a less expensive area or living in a smaller home
Cars – driving an older used car, or for a family getting rid of a second car
Food – cutting out dining outside, and going the extra mile to make frugal dining choices

It’s almost like thinking about what you need to live comfortably, and then spending at 80% of that level. Maybe we can get used to that, just like the body gets used to living on less calories when stopping at 80% full.

Update: Just so everyone knows what I mean by 80%, I’m referring to 80% of current expenses. I’m not referring to spending 80% of income and saving 20%. Rather, I mean take whatever your expense level is and multiply it by 0.8. For example, if a family earns $100,000 and spends $80,000, they’re saving $20,000. By applying this Hara Hachi Bu concept, the family would take the $80,000 expenses, multiply by 80%, and spend the resulting amount instead: $64,000. In this case, savings as a percentage of incomes goes up from 20% to 36%!

My Questions for You

What do you think of the idea of living on 80% of an otherwise reasonable expense level?

Do you think that doing this could extend the life of your savings and substantially grow your net worth?

Much like the Hara Hachi Bu rule, do you think that this approach is one that would require a higher level of discipline than many of us are accustomed to?

Make Sure to Review Your Credit Card Statement

By Squirrelers 17 Comments

Review Your Credit Card Statement!

Do you carefully check your credit card statements, and review the transactions? It can help ensure that you’re not being charged unnecessarily for any “phantom” transactions, unauthorized purchases, or mistakes. I had an experience recently that serves as another example of why we take the time to at least scan through our statements each month.

First off, I make it a practice to pay off any bills in full each month. I don’t like to carry credit card balances, and simply don’t do that. Rather, I pay it all in full and on time each month. So, when reviewing a credit card bill, I typically don’t think of there being any issues in those areas. I’m usually focusing on transactions instead.

A recent review of a statement showed that all the transactions seemed fine, but something else jumped out at me: an interest charge! Impossible, right? After all, I pay may bills on time and in full, so there should be no problems.

Immediately, I called the credit card company. After describing the situation, and asking why it happened, it turns out that my last payment had been received late. Now, that’s not something I wanted to hear, since you just don’t want to be paying bills late. There must have been some kind of mistake on their part!

Well, after they described the situation, I froze for a second and realized that I had been busy the month before and my payment was made close to the deadline. I normally don’t do that, but it was just one of those things. However, I pay bills online and the payment date was supposed to be right at the deadline date. Apparently, it must have hit right after that so thus the late fee.

Ouch. Obviously, if you read this blog, you know that this is NOT something I would be happy about. Being someone that takes pride in financial responsibility, I didn’t like that this happened.

I explained the situation to the person on the phone, and stated that I pay my bills on time in full every month, and that was the reason I was surprised and called. The guy on the line then said he would make sure that the fees were reversed and charges removed. Great!

After getting charges reversed, I felt some satisfaction in knowing that reviewing a credit card statement saved money. Of course, I also learned a lesson that even people who are responsible can slip and make a mistake by procrastinating. Best to pay bills well ahead of the deadline, to avoid any situations like this where you have to call. Minimizing credit card expenses is a good thing.

Finally a big thing I learned from the experience is that building up a stellar track record of paying in full on time can build goodwill.

My Questions for You

Do you review your credit card statements each month?

Have you ever found any surprise charges on there? If so, how did you handle the situation?

What is your process for making the payments each month?

Lottery Coupons: Save Money on Losing Money

By Squirrelers 13 Comments

Most coupons provide opportunities to save money, and many provide nice little opportunities to save on things you need. Sure, you might be also enticed to spend money on something you might not otherwise buy. That’s a downside, to be sure. But at least you’re getting something of value back when you purchase most merchandise.

Well, I came across a different kind of coupon some weeks back: lottery coupons. These friendly, fun little coupons found their way to my mailbox somehow, along with the opportunity to save some money on certain purchases. Such as, buy one get one free on various purchaes.

Only thing is, these “purchases” are lottery tickets. You know, the type where you get a set of numbers, and if that highly unlikely combination of numbers is selected, you might win big bucks. And you know, the type that are also not likely to make you a positive return on your investment.

So with these coupons, you get an opportunity to save money on a miniscule chance to make money. This doesn’t seem like my type of deal. Why not take that same money and save it? Even in a low interest bank account, it will still have a higher expected return than a lottery. How about putting the money in the market? That will also have a higher expected value, right? One can spend time looking for other ways to save money. Finding good credit card deals might be one example of a better use of time. Or, trying to find other ways to save or make money.

Now look, I’m all about having a little fun – so there’s no harm in spending a dollar on a ticket, right? I say that even though I personally don’t buy these things. Again, for the reasons above – throwing away money and getting little or nothing back. When one thinks of how to invest in 2012, lottery tickets don’t exactly come to mind. But even though a dollar or two here and there isn’t a huge deal, it’s the idea that something like this could get people excited is what gets me shaking my head. I mean, you know that there were people who saw these buy one get one free coupons and just got totally excited about them. For some reason, lottery tickets have a magical effect on some people. Like I’ve said before, caveat emptor on opportunities to get something for next to nothing!

So in case it’s not clear, I will not be using these coupons for lottery tickets:)

It’s fun to think about what we would do if we won the lottery, but I guess it only matters if you actually play, right? You don’t have a chance to win unless you play! Not that you have much of a chance even if you do play, though.

Alright, you get what I think of this. Maybe I’m too rigid about this, what do you think?

My Questions for You

Do you ever play the lottery?

What do you think about playing such games vs other ways to make money?

Do you see this my way, that these coupons are a bit ridiculous?

Spend Wisely: 2 Simple Questions to Ask Before You Buy

By Squirrelers 16 Comments

Four days have passed, and no money has been spent.

As I write this, the day before publication, I have started the new year by spending no money in the first 4 days of the year. Zero, zilch, nada. Absolutely nothing. Hooray! Of course I’ll inevitably spend on different things soon, but my resolution to spend less money on discretionary items has started out the way I wanted it to. It’s always nice to get some early momentum on working toward a goal, no matter what it happens to be!

Really, what I’m trying to do is lower expenses in order to help efforts to grow net worth. Now, I generally think that most of us should spend more of our time and energy on the income growth side of things, and maybe even investing a bit of time in risk management. So, let’s not get carried away or become stingy. Dwelling on saving money can only get us so far. After all, as I say periodically here, we do need to make money before we can save money, right?

With that in mind, rather than going too far by getting obsessed with expense-lowering strategies, I’m trying to make it a habit to very quickly assess whether or not to I need to make a particular purchase at any point in time. This expense assessment strategy basically involves asking the following questions when I’m making a purchase.

Do I need this? Yep, the old wants versus needs question comes back again! However, just because something is a want, it doesn’t mean it can’t be purchased. Life would be too boring if we only did what we need to do and ignored what we would really want to do. However, needs are just that – needs – while wants can be addressed sometimes when the time is right. So aside from exceptions, if it’s not needed, question whether or not it will be purchased.
Is there a lower cost option easily available? OK, so we’ve very quickly decided “Yes” to question #1. We need to make the purchase, whether it’s food, clothing, gas, or whatever. But can we spend less? For example: if you’re at work, you’ll typically take some time in the middle of the day to eat lunch. Maybe that means going to the company cafeteria, or running out to pick up a sandwich or salad. Sure, you could do that, but what about bringing something from home? You could save some money that way if it doesn’t take much extra time to prepare and pack a lunch. Even a few dollars a day can add up to a lot annually.

It’s a very simple, yet very effective concept. Do you need it, and if so – could you get it for less elsewhere, without spending much extra time. Keeping it simple allows us to avoid overanalyze saving money, and think about other things too:)

My Questions for You

Do you ever stop yourself when making purchases, to decide whether or not you need to spend?

What approaches do you use to make sure you’re spending your money wisely?

Get an Early Start on 2012 Resolutions – plus November Recap

By Squirrelers 14 Comments

With December upon us, I thought this would be a good time to look back at November, and take a look forward to 2012 as well. With the former, I’m referring to – well, acknowledging the top referrers to Squirrelers from the prior month, as well as making some other acknowledgments. With the latter, I’m talking about looking at 2012 money resolutions and taking them for a test drive early – as in now!

Getting a Running Start on New Year’s Resolutions

Recently, I started to give some thoughts to 2012 resolutions, within the personal finance realm and otherwise. Those goals will be in place for January, so the New Year can be started with a clean slate and new aspirations. Not sure how you see it, but New Year’s goals can help provide extra motivation and more importantly some clarity and something to shoot for.

Anyway, I was thinking about it, and it occurred to me: as we think of resolutions for 2012, why wait until January 1 to start?

Calendar dates dictate so much of what we do, but why do they have to control behavior change? If we have specific things we’re working toward, we might has well get a running start on them. It’s like a car that can’t go from 0 to 60 mph instantly, but can get to that speed in less time if it’s already moving.

For example, if you know that you’d like to spend less money on eating at restaurants (yeah, that’s me), why not just do it in December? No need to wait until January 1st. Same applies to other personal finance goals, be it spending less money, increasing income, working less, increasing financial knowledge, or whatever the case may be.

I still do like the concept of New Year’s goals, as they’re clearly delineated, traditional, and do provide that clarity of purpose that I mentioned earlier. But it certainly couldn’t hurt to get started now. Not that I want to cut out those meals from my favorite places, but hey – might as well jump in now, right? There’s no time better than the present.

Top Referrers in November

The following were the sites that referred the most visitors to Squirrelers last month. I’ll call these 12 the “lucky dozen” – as in, lucky for Squirrelers:) Special thanks goes out to these folks:

Interest.co.nz
Free Money Finance
Yakezie
So Over Debt
Len Penzo.com
Retire by 40
101 Centavos
Totally Money
Wisebread
Budgeting in the Fun Stuff
The Dog Ate My Wallet
Everyday Tips and Thoughts
Hope to Prosper

Squirrelers in Blog Carnivals

Squirrelers was in the following blog carnivals in November (including 3 Editor’s Picks!):

Loss Leader Pricing Strategies: At the Pumpkin Patch? was included in the Yakezie Carnival at One Cent at a Time

Sleep or Money? was included in the Carnival of Personal Finance at Barbara Friedberg Personal Finance

Asking for A Discount Can be Fun! was selected as an Editor’s Pick in the Festival of Frugality at Afford Anything

Any Easy Way to Save Money and Work Less was selected as an Editor’s Pick in the Totally Money Blog Carnival

Historical Pattern: Stock Prices Increase on the First Day of the Month was included in the Carnival of Personal Finance at Retire By 40

My Starbucks Customer Service Experience: Loopholes and Deals are Fun! was included in the Festival of Frugality at My Dollar Plan

Squirreling Gone Wild #30: The Elusive Bonus was included in the Yakezie Carnival at The Saved Quarter

College or Entrepreneurship? was selected as an Editor’s Pick in the Totally Money Blog Carnival at Retire by 40

8 Benefits of Using Credit Cards – For Those With Discipline was included in the Carnival of Personal Finance at Compounding Returns

Yogurt, Differentation, and Personal Branding?Yes! was included in the Totally Money Blog Carnival at The Saved Quarter

Consider Emotions vs. Logic When Buying a Home was included in the Carnival of Wealth at Control Your Cash

Inhertiances and Blended Families: Who’s the Priority? was included in the Carnival of Personal Finance at My Personal Finance Journey

Should Your Adult, Working Child Take Out Cash Advances?

By Squirrelers 1 Comment

Every parent – particular those who adhered to principles of frugality, delayed gratification and all-around squirreling behaviors – would like to see smart money management skills in their children. These skills might be evident (or not) in the teenage years, but generally become noticeable in their 20s, within a year or two of graduating from college.

But the current economic conditions are throwing off a lot of expectations. First, we know that 85 percent of recent college grads are living at home with their parents. This could be interpreted as frugal behavior. But in reality it’s a matter of poor employment opportunities coupled with high student loan repayment schedules. It’s pretty hard to repay on those loans when you’re working for $20,000 or $30,000 per year.

Second, among those adult children working in their first jobs, savings are just about nil. And because so few of them have credit cards – which are a lot harder to qualify for today than before – having a source of emergency cash to cover insurance deductibles or car repairs is a very real concern.

Do you want them coming to you for cash when they need it? At what point do you definitively cut the cord?

One source of loans for anyone with any form of job is paycheck cash advances . Also known as faxless payday loans, these types of loans have faced much scrutiny in recent years, much of it critical. But as an option, it teaches the borrower a few things:

A sense of independence – Borrowers learn they can manage the situation with their own financial solution. There may be other occasions to do some similar financial two-stepping later life, yes?

Stay true to obligations – When your child is able to cover a medical or car mechanic bill, or simply pay rent or insurance premiums, because they are taking out a paycheck cash advance, they are honoring their commitments.

Learn tradeoffs – If the interest charges on faxless payday loans make them uncomfortable, fine. That is a lesson in how managing (or failing to manage) money comes with a benefit or cost.

After all, money management is complicated. We – and our children – can learn through experience.

Considering Emotions vs. Logic when Buying a Home

By Squirrelers 14 Comments

I got into a conversation a few weeks ago about the idea of “stretching” to buy a nice home. The idea that was given to me was that it’s worth it to pay a little more than you might want to right now, in order to get a house that’s a bit out of your comfort zone financially.

The justification was that over time, your income should go up, while the mortgage payment will be fixed. Thus, what seems like a big payment now based on what you see in an E-Mortgage calculator will seem much smaller later. Additionally, the idea went, if you buy a bigger home up front, you won’t have regrets later.

This isn’t the first time I’ve heard this. And just like I did that prior time, I argued against the notion of stretching once again.

Admittedly, I think that I might be in the minority when it comes to such a belief. When I bought a condo way back in the day, I was in the majority of first-time buyers that simply didn’t fully understand all the nuances of mortgages, they payments that go along with them, and where they can fit into your overall finances. Luckily, I ended up selling the thing for a small profit. Hooray! However, there are clearly some people who weren’t as lucky, and got burned.

My guess is that they didn’t run the numbers, didn’t have a household budget, and didn’t really plan enough for the payments. What I think many people with financial literacy issues do is just listen to what the lender tells them they could afford. Then, they spend that much. After that, they just try to figure out how to live on the rest.

Why? Good question. My guess is that for many people, a home is an overly emotional investment. Somehow, it’s looked at as worth spending a ton on because it’s a place you’re actually living. Or, there’s an assumption that a home is always a good investment. Or, perhaps, some people still think that the bigger the interest payment, the bigger the tax benefit, thus take out a big loan (NO!).

Whatever the case is, I think it’s important to separate emotions from the decision to buy a home, as much as realistically possible. More importantly, think in terms of wants versus needs.

For example:

Is it truly necessary to buy a newly constructed home, or can you live in a 20 year old house?
Do you actually need that 4th bedroom, or can you make do with 3 bedrooms?
Does your lot have to have a huge yard, or can you live on less space?
Do you really need to have granite counter tops, or can standard counters work for now?

By thinking about wants vs. needs, we can truly be willing to understand that when buying a house, we’re making purchasing tradeoffs just like we do with other decisions. The difference is that the stakes are likely much higher here.

You can end up spending a ton more money to get something you want vs what you need, and end up having to work harder and for more years to make those extra payments on the wants versus the needs. Plus, as we’ve seen, homes aren’t always liquid assets, and they can actually decline in value quite a bit in the wrong circumstances.

Bottom line: While emotion and preferences of course have a place in the home purchasing process, I think it’s important to buy a home primarly based on logical needs, not emotional wants. To those who think that this takes away from the enjoyment of life in some way, I’ll come back by saying that it probably enhances the enjoyment of life, as you’ll have less pressure and more free time due to having to spend less money on the home.

My Questions for You:

Do you think it’s a good idea to stretch for a more expensive home, or do you think it’s best to find a home that fits your current financial situation very comfortably?

Do you also think that many people let emotions get in the way when buying a home, or do you think that a home is a much different type of purchase in which emotions are a big part of it?

8 Benefits of Using Credit Cards – For those With Discipline

By Squirrelers 25 Comments

Personally, I’m fortunate enough to have never been in credit card debt. It’s always been a part of my financial ways to try to pay off credit card bills in full during each billing cycle. So, thankfully, I’ve avoided the stress involved with over reliance on credit cards, and the need to pay off credit card debt. Frankly, I’ve seen that there are even benefits of using a credit card.

A few months ago, I was talking to a friend about somebody we both knew. I don’t keep in touch with this other person, and see her extremely infrequently, as in once every few years. However, my friend is more involved in a different circle of people, and communicates more with this other person. Anyway, he shared with me that this person – we’ll call her “Jill” – was unemployed and running out of money. Being single, she didn’t have a spouse’s income to help her. Clearly, she hadn’t saved much, and now was carrying a credit card balance.

My friend was suggesting (to me, not her) that Jill should just stop using cards altogether, as that’s what probably got her into the mess in the first place, or at least contributed to it. In his view, anyway. To me, this isn’t the problem. If overspending is the issue, it’s more her self-discipline and financial literacy that’s the problem. I don’t know her that well at all, but recall talking about jobs and careers with her once. She seemed to have her head on straight and seemed otherwise intelligent. This is why I’m guessing it’s discipline and knowledge that are the culprits.

Now, I do think that Jill should focus on A) finding a source of income, some way, some how; and B) eradicate that credit card debt as soon as possible. However, In my view, credit cards in general can be a valuable tool for people to use. Thus, I don’t advocate her giving up credit cards altogether.

Advantages of Using a Credit Card

Rewards. First off, I will say that paying cash can sometimes provide a benefit. When you ask for a discount and offer to pay in cash, you might get a deal. However, this is tough to do for most purchases. Thus, if you charge a lot of your day to day shopping, you’re not missing out on cash discounts and can in fact receive rewards. I slowly accumulate airline miles with one of my credit cards, and have a round trip airfare awaiting for my efforts!
Cash Back. Some cards can offer a different kind of “reward” – money back. There are some interesting cash back credit cards out there, and quite a number of people like this option. An effective discount on purchases, if possible, is a nice perk.
Building Credit. By having credit, and paying off bills regularly and on time, people can prove themselves to be creditworthy. When buying a home, for example, having a good credit score can help secure a good interest rate, much less a loan in the first place.
Float. By paying cash, you’re shelling out money right away. By charging, you’re delaying payment. If you could let the money sit in an interest-bearing account for an extra 20 days, for example, you might earn a little extra money this way. When aggregated throughout the year, this can amount to something more than just a few pennies. Why not take advantage?
Tracking Expenses. With credit cards, each transaction is automatically recorded, and you can easily view a summarized list of expenses for a given time period. By paying cash, it makes it that much more time consuming to keep track of expenses. More knowledge can result in taking action on potential overspending, and can engender better habits.
Consumer Protection. In some cases, there is some level of insurance involved with credit card use. In other words, some cards can offer you warranty protection in certain cases, travel insurance, or even rental car insurance.
Ability to Make Certain Purchases. Whenever I have rented a hotel room or a car, I’ve needed to have a credit card to complete the transaction. Avoiding having a credit card can make such transactions more difficult.
Convenience. Let’s say you charge something that cost $11.02. Yeah, it’s a random number, but work with me for this example. If you pay with a credit card, you get a receipt back. If you pay by cash, you get change. If you hand over a $20 bill, you’ll back get one $5 bill, three $1 bills, three quarters, two dimes, and three pennies. That’s the best case. Who wants to lug around that much change?

Now, these are all great reasons to use credit cards. However, use of credit cards should be accompanied by self-discipline. Pay your bills on time, in full, every month. Additionally, don’t buy more than you would otherwise buy if paying in cash. If you can do those things, credit cards can be an essential part of one’s finances.

As for Jill, from the discussion above? I think that the notion that she should abandon credit cards altogether is overreacting. Discipline with credit cards is the key for her, along with reducing that balance ASAP.

My Questions For You:

What’s your view on self-discipline and credit cards? Is it different than mine?

Do you know of any other advantages (or disadvantages) of using credit cards, that you can share?

What do you think of the notion that Jill’s biggest problem is self-discipline, as opposed to the use of credit cards?

Free Trips to Japan and $1.00 Houses: Too Good to be True?

By Squirrelers 30 Comments

Free is good right? Or, getting something at a bargain price that’s almost free. Either way, getting something for minimal outlay can be enticing. How about a free trip to Japan, with roundtrip airfare paid. Good deal, right?

Well, maybe not.

At first, my eyes lit up when I saw news stories pop up that the Japan Tourism Agency might be offering 10,000 free roundtrips to Japan. Word was that if funding was approved, signups could begin as soon as Spring 2012. The idea appears to be to kickstart tourism there again, to get visitors coming again and spending money, following the fears after the nuclear disasters there. I had posted months ago about my concerns about being near the Japanese nuclear facilities. Seems like people like me would be candidates to have our minds changed, at least on the surface.

Here’s the part that really got me even more interested: they would want the recipients to be able to promote the trips on blogs or social media. So of course I thought “Hey wait a minute. I have a blog, I have a Twitter account…hey, why not me? I could see it now, The Wise Squirrel in Japan…”

There is No Such Thing As a Free Lunch

This is a saying that my father mentioned to me on more than one occasion when growing up. I had previously relayed a story on a free lunch that I had received which got me thinking how it wasn’t truly free. It was sponsored by a company promoting the upcoming launch of a new television show, and they also gave out some promotional material with the sandwich. Of course that got me to tell people about it, and search for it online.

Well, that concept of “there is no such thing as a free lunch” can apply to this trip to Japan too. Note that the terms of the free trip as mentioned in news reports indicate that round trip air fare would be provided under that potential program. Hotel accomodations, food, and other expenses were not mentioned.

That’s a big deal, actually. Tokyo is well known as being a very expensive city, with hotel rooms that cost an outrageous amount of money. Plus, food can be expensive there as well. Want to get around the city? Interested in venturing to other parts of the country? That will cost you money from your own pocket as well. All of these costs are not insignificant.

If someone is on a strict budget, or is carrying debt, is a vacation that will ultimately cost thousands of dollars anyway really worth it?

$1 Houses

The trip to Japan is a compelling example as it’s based on more recent news. However, there is another example that comes to mind. I had written a post in 2010 about $1 houses in Detroit. In that post, I commented on how a house can be purchased for the price of a cup of coffee. After looking at this further, it’s clear that there’s more involved than just getting a cheap house. In reality, those houses might require some signficant work to become habitable. Additionally, there are taxes and other expenses that generally don’t go away. As I noted in another post, just by paying off your home and owning it outright, you never truly “own” your home free of major costs.

Back to the “Free” Japan Trip

Based on how this has been described, would I take this Japan opportunity if offered to me? No, probably not.

I would like to visit Japan someday. I’ve visited a other Asian countries (China, India) and would like to explore Japan. Frankly, I’m not worried about the nuclear plant in terms of visiting other parts of the country – such as Tokyo, for example.

However, as I noted, those other costs would be too high. Sure, the overall trip costs would be a lot lower than if I would otherwise take the trip. However, just because something is on sale or at a discount, it doesn’t mean that it’s worth it. We understand this concept with normal consumer purchases, so it applies here too.

Of course, if people could turn around and sell the free trip on some secondary market, that might be a win-win 🙂

My Questions for You

Based on the terms of trip as you know them to be (roundtrip air provided but nothing else), would you take them up on such an offer?

Do you see this way differently from how I do, or are you aligned with my position? Curious about why or why not?

Have you ever experienced situations where you had a chance to buy something for a big discount, but turned it down?